The Art of Communication
This fun podcast series is for anyone who has to deliver a message, tell a story or speak to another human being. Robin Kermode and Sian Hansen cover all aspects of how you connect with everyone you meet - whether you're giving a speech, running a meeting or simply talking with friends. Our Communication Experts series includes experts in many different fields: TV and radio presenters, politicians, auctioneers, writers, professors, lawyers, film directors, actors, art dealers, photographers and designers etc. Everyone will be an expert in communicating with their audience in their particular medium. Robin Kermode, is an actor, best-selling author, leading Communication Coach, popular keynote speaker, body language expert and media commentator. For more information visit: www.robinkermode.com
The Art of Communication
Executive Presence - Leadership Beyond Charisma
Executive Presence - Leadership Beyond Charisma.
What is executive presence? And can you learn it?
It's a crucial but often misunderstood quality in effective leadership. Discover how true executive presence builds a sense of security and respect rather than fear.
We discuss real life examples, from Rafael Nadal to Mark Zuckerberg and Elon Musk and find the core elements that make up genuine executive presence. We look at how we can all become leaders with executive presence that our teams truly want to follow.
Join Robin Kermode and Sian Hansen for another fun podcast episode as they discuss some of the secrets to boosting your executive presence.
Hello and welcome to the Art of Communication podcast with me, robin Kermode. Have you ever wished you could become a confident speaker or presenter? Then why not join my online masterclass Speak so your Audience Will Listen. In 10 easy-to-follow modules, you can become a confident and authentic speaker. For more information, visit robincurmodecom.
Speaker 2:Hello and welcome to the Art of Communication podcast. I'm here with Robin Kermode. Hello, you and I were chatting the other day and I asked you what are you most asked to train or teach at the moment? The current favorite topic and you said Executive presence.
Speaker 1:what are you?
Speaker 2:most asked to train or teach at the moment. The current favorite topic.
Speaker 1:And you said Executive presence.
Speaker 2:So that's what we're going to talk about today. Robin, tell me what it is, because I think it's quite elusive.
Speaker 1:It's a kind of X factor that you feel. You see it in people you can hear it when you listen to them and you just think they have this thing, this X factor, this executive presence, as businesses now call it. It is the most common thing that businesses ask me to coach. Now. These are very senior people on the X-Co.
Speaker 2:So this is all about leadership, is it?
Speaker 1:It's a leadership style. It's how to look, sound and feel like a leader in the modern world.
Speaker 2:Right, and executive presence then means when you walk in a room. What do you feel? Yes, I know, Literally, what is that vibe that they give off?
Speaker 1:Well, it's a careful balance, isn't it? Because if somebody comes in with a puffed out chest, they have their chin too high and they're swanning around looking down on everyone. That is somebody who is trying to look like they're important.
Speaker 2:And I've noticed, if they're that kind of character, they don't catch your eye or they do, but it's very disdainful, like what are you doing?
Speaker 1:here it is.
Speaker 2:I think it's got something to do with. They think that causing fear is executive presence. You walk in a room and people are fearful of you, but that's not what it is.
Speaker 1:No, and also those kinds of people make it all about them. Yes, that's why they don't have executive presence. So executive presence is essentially if you put it into one phrase, I think it's you make other people feel safe around you. Part of that is making them feel special, and we can look at all the various points of it, but actually it's about making people feel safe around you so that in a crisis, you want to follow them. In normal times, you want to be on the winning team, so you like them.
Speaker 2:Or in my respect. What is it?
Speaker 1:Well, it can be like lots of different styles of leadership aren't there? There are some who are terrifying and everyone's terrified of them. I'm not sure that's the best.
Speaker 2:No, like I said, I don't think fear is.
Speaker 1:No, but it is some people's style. It's certainly not what I would teach. But in terms of executive presence, I think you want probably to like the person, but also you want them to see you, so you want them to be impressed by you, so you want to work hard so they notice you and they give you that affirmation.
Speaker 2:Is that a kind of parent-child relationship? It is a little bit.
Speaker 1:It is a little bit yeah, because actually certainly in crisis people want to be led. We don't want chaos. Crisis management is slightly different, but even then we want someone with executive presence.
Speaker 2:Okay, so what would you teach a client asking for training in executive presence? What do you think the key elements are? I'm assuming you can learn this ability to have executive presence.
Speaker 1:Well, you would hope so, Otherwise I don't have a job. Yeah, If I'm talking to say leadership and development or talent development or HR, and they say we have a senior leader here, we feel he or she needs to have more executive presence in the role they have. Maybe they have a team of 10,000 people in their team and it's a big number of people you have to inspire and there's all sorts of ways you can connect with them. You can't meet them all because there's 10,000 of them, but maybe you have to do a series of videos, Maybe you have to have a series of roadshows, but all those interactions, whether it's meeting them over coffee or on a stage, we have to find a way to connect with them and make them feel special, make them feel safe.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So when I'm working with somebody and HR say to me, what will you do, I said well, I don't know until I meet them, because everyone has different challenges. Most people, if they've got to senior positions in business, they will have a lot of the right tools, otherwise they wouldn't have got there. And I think it's just a chance to stand back with somebody external who can say look, I think what you're doing here is great, but you could be misinterpreted if you do what you're doing there and I think you're missing a trick over here. But we can go through all the menu, as it were, that's required for executive presence, because it's a makeup of lots of things. As you said at the beginning, it's an X factor, it's a montage of things.
Speaker 2:I just imagine, when we're talking about executive presence, that you can teach it, because everything that you're talking about safety, confidence and trust is something that we've talked about before on these podcasts and it can be taught.
Speaker 1:It can be taught, and sometimes on a good day, often we do these things. I mean on a personal level, sian, I mean I think you have executive presence and I would say that not just because you're my wife, but I would say that generally and you do have it. I know you do have it because I've seen you run organizations.
Speaker 2:What in the kitchen telling you what to do? No, no.
Speaker 1:I've seen you running organizations and you're brilliant, but do you think you've grown that or do you think you always had some executive presence?
Speaker 2:No, I'm not sure that the way you're describing it is something that I would necessarily recognize in myself. I do know that you know I'll have an idea or I'll think strategically about something, and what I really, truly want is the others to come on board. You see, what I'm all about is listening to a number of different perspectives.
Speaker 1:And then making a decision.
Speaker 2:And then making a decision. I think it's really important. I think, if you try and impose your view on an organization that sometimes people mistake that for leadership. You definitely go into the discussion with a view. Yes, definitely, but you have to have listened to a lot of different perspectives, and I'm going to say particularly the young perspective, because so much is changing in the world today, and I think the younger generation really, truly understand it.
Speaker 2:So lean in, listen to that, listen to all the perspectives and then show some leadership about what you're going to carry out, but make sure that you've brought everybody along with you, you will have come across people.
Speaker 1:They ask a question but they're not really listening, Always, always. And I think also there are other people who act listening. In fact, they're just waiting for their next chance to come in.
Speaker 2:Definitely. I would say that's a characteristic of every board meeting or town hall or whatever.
Speaker 1:For listening, yes.
Speaker 2:But then from my perspective you can kind of forgive them, Because in a way, quite often a leader has a million things to be thinking about while speaking, while listening.
Speaker 1:But I think that brings up something that is interesting. I think that people with executive presence are present, and I've been with very senior leaders, you know, and you go up to the maybe the I don't know the 14th floor of some office block and as you get higher and higher it gets quieter and quieter because there's more strategy being decided. But when I've sat with CEOs on the top floor, often they will say, robin, can I get you a coffee? They will actually pour the coffee rather than sitting there snapping their fingers and ordering somebody to get them a coffee or get me a coffee. The very fact that they do that.
Speaker 1:They have a bit of humility and they're very good hosts. But in the 20 minutes I'm with them or the two hours I'm with them whatever 100% there. They're not constantly checking their phone. They generally would have an assistant who would come in and tell them the meeting's over so that they can relax about timing. But they are 100% listening and I suspect that what they do is when they finish my meeting they go on to the next meeting. They're 100% into that one and they seem to manage to compartmentalize very well.
Speaker 2:I see what you're saying be present in the meeting, and that shows respect, frankly. So let's just add to that list right Bit of a daisy chain here. Tell us what else you need.
Speaker 1:Well, if we look at just the person themselves, there's the voice, the body language, the language they use, the way their mind works, the eye contact. There's all that.
Speaker 2:So all the basics of communication, so all the basics of communication.
Speaker 1:But the basis of all that is to make the other person feel safe, make them feel special. So to do that, we have to build trust. We have to be consistent so they know what they're going to get. We have to be clear in our messaging. I think a lot of people with executive presence are essentially kind, right, they're generous with their comments, they are physically calm, as we've said. They're also unafraid of difficult conversations. They're unafraid of looking at the elephant in the room and I think they're also approachable. They don't have to have a door open policy because they may have too many in their team, but I think they are generally approachable.
Speaker 1:The other thing I think that, above everything, is they have to have a lot of energy. Maybe stamina is a better word, but they have to have a lot of stamina. Maybe stamina is a better word, right, but they have to have a lot of stamina because these are long days. Everyone will understand this, that if you're in a very senior position, you're probably going to start with breakfast meetings going right through to dinners in the evening. These are long, long days and you can't come in being grumpy one day. No, because this element of consistency goes out the window if you do that.
Speaker 2:Do you know what? I think that's true because I've worked places where I feel that the very senior person or people are inconsistent, you actually have to check with their PA first.
Speaker 1:How are they?
Speaker 2:today. How are they today? It's terrible. And you do want consistency, yeah, you do. Now that consistency can be that you know they're a tough egg. That's fine.
Speaker 2:But that's fine as long as you know what you're going to get. I think that does inspire people. But, robin, the one thing you haven't mentioned and maybe this is the consequence of all the things you've mentioned is how do they command attention? You once said to me you know an executive leader walks into a room and there's 10% more bubble of energy in the room because they've walked in. Is that because of everything you've said? How do you actually command attention?
Speaker 1:Well, a very funny example of this is the local restaurant we go to here. There's a lovely Spanish restaurant just down the road from us and it's one that Rafael Nadal goes to, because it's a Spanish restaurant. It's his favorite restaurant, so at Wimbledon time they fill it with tennis balls and things in the windows and he comes in. When he walks in there, obviously he's recognisable he's Nadal. We all love him and he's a nice guy. But there's something about the expression on his face. He's looking at everybody, he catches everyone's eye, as if to say you know, good evening. He doesn't have to say it, he just does it with a little nod and a smile, but on his face it's a kind of okay, now the party can get started and he has this kind of it's a lovely energy that he brings in.
Speaker 2:So executive presence isn't about celebrity. Is that what you're hinting at? Or it's a bit of celebrity?
Speaker 1:In that case, of course, it's different, because we are projecting onto him. He walks in and we go oh my goodness me, that's Rafael Nadal. So we're, in a sense, adding to his status.
Speaker 2:But he has executive presence.
Speaker 1:But he has it anyway the way you've described it.
Speaker 2:this sports person has it the way you describe it trust, humility, total humility, communication team player. You know he's got it all.
Speaker 1:Yes, and there was a lovely story with him actually on when he got to the final of tennis tournaments in London. He asked the tournament director the night before. He said can I have 10 extra tickets for the final? He said they're for the 10 Spanish waiters at the Spanish restaurant. Fantastic. So again he's a team player.
Speaker 2:So what then can you teach an executive, just digging into this a little bit, from a sports personality? So sports personalities do have executive presence, as well as physical strength and prowess and awards, and they also have bad days.
Speaker 1:They have days when they have a headache. They're feeling a bit run down.
Speaker 2:They're tired, they're bored. Oh, but you just said an executive presence means you can't have a bad day.
Speaker 1:No, I'm saying but therefore, of course, but they will still have those days, but you find a way of coping it. So even on a day when they're feeling a bit low, they walk into the restaurant going part of my job in a way. So part of the job of a celebrity is to be their team, feel valued. Yeah, On every day, every day.
Speaker 2:Can I ask you another question, just veering off slightly here what is the benefit of having executive presence taught to your senior leaders? Because that might help us get to the answer of what it means to be a good executive.
Speaker 1:I think a lot of businesses will always have wanted their leaders to be good leaders. So you break it down and think well, what is a good leader? Well, part of it is understanding the strategy, it's building the right team and these kind of things. But also how they communicate, how they come across, is important. I think in the past, charisma has been misinterpreted as executive presence. But charisma is about look at me, it's about having a sort of a star quality in a sense.
Speaker 2:Maybe there's an element of that Well, yes, there is, but especially when you're out fundraising for the company you know you want somebody who's charismatic and people want to listen to, but it is different to executive presence. I know and I think the executive presence is about propelling the company forward. So it's all about de-risking the company, because it means that you can feel confident in the leadership, that they will bring people along with them yes, where the company is going. And so I think executive presence must lead to a more successful company.
Speaker 1:And it will lead to leaders having a clear vision and being able to.
Speaker 2:I've got this image that, let's say, if you're working in a technology company, especially a new startup, everybody's got headphones on and they're just clicking away at their computers and they're building something amazing that will change the world. But do they have executive presence? The people who have started those companies and are starting to fundraise and build and build, and build? If you look at the big people, you've got Mark Zuckerberg and Musk and all these people. Yes, have they got executive presence? Or is it charismatic?
Speaker 1:Well, they're certainly charismatic because they're entrepreneurs so most entrepreneurs who have an idea and they're propelled by this idea and they're treble mortgaging their house to get it all up. So their buy-in for their idea is huge. So they probably have some sort of charismatic presence to bring people along with them. They're not necessarily great leaders. Yeah, exactly. They're often one-man bands that now have lots of people, so they then have to bring other people to bring in the processes and everything else. But once you get to a certain level, you can't just have a charismatic one-man band leader, because you have to have somebody.
Speaker 2:Because the company stalls, because everything has to go through that.
Speaker 1:Yes, and the funnel is too small and you have to have well as you know, sian, you've been a COO so the processes in a larger company have to be set there and the executive presence is someone who can bring all those processes in, but not give people a straitjacket, so they feel they have autonomy and they feel they have energy, they can come up with ideas within a framework.
Speaker 1:There's a very good analogy I came up with a few years ago sorry, I'm praising myself here, but I think it's a very good analogy of a vet. So if you take a wounded animal or an animal that's ill to a vet, the animal is probably in pain or nervous in some sense and they're taken to an unfamiliar environment. So you take them out of the cage the cat or the dog and you put them up on the table. Now the vet has to hold the animal firm enough so that it doesn't look tentative and nervous, because if it's tentative and nervous the animal will pick it up and they'll want to run away. And if it's too firm, they'll feel controlled and they'll feel nervous and want to run away. So there's a really fine balance of holding an animal firmly enough so they feel safe, but not they feel nervous or controlled, and I think that's for me what executive presence is it's holding all your team firmly enough so they feel safe, but not too firm that they feel they're being controlled.
Speaker 2:What before you put the needle in them?
Speaker 1:Well, no, no, we're not going to do the needle bit.
Speaker 2:No, no, no. That's really interesting. So just on that vein, where have you seen good executive leadership in your daily life? Don't name names. You don't have to name names.
Speaker 1:No, I can't name names, of course, but one of the best examples was a very large international company I was working with and the CEO very famous man in this case he happened to be tall. I think sometimes height can help but I know lots of people with executive presence who are not tall, but this man happened to be about six foot two. He wasn't a giant but he was tall. He was very recognizable, very famous. I was with him in the lift. Another of his colleagues came in the lift.
Speaker 1:Now I could see on this man's face that he was thinking that's the big boss and I've got 30 seconds. I was trying to impress him in some way and I could see the boss looked at him and he knew exactly what was going on. So he reached out his hand, he said oh, hello, I'm. And he gave him his name and of course the employee said well, of course I know who you are. And he said now, what are you working on now? And he said well, we're working on this particular project. The ceo said I've heard about that. That's wonderful, very good, have a great afternoon. That guy will go home and tell his partner, his children, everything. He's met this big boss because the boss is very famous and I think that moment of um being 30 seconds in the lift was spreading the love, as it were, was executive presence.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and showing interest.
Speaker 1:Showing interest. You made the person feel special caring that employee will do anything for it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I had a similar situation when I was being shown around a new shopping mall. It hadn't opened yet, huge one in London. I was so excited. I love looking around buildings that haven't yet opened to the public. I was walking with the CEO. He knew everybody on site. He knew everybody's name Watcher, how are you? Hello, mate? You could see that those people would follow him to the end of the earth because he knew who they were and they sometimes even knew their families.
Speaker 1:Took a genuine interest.
Speaker 2:Oh no, he absolutely was totally genuine about it. Like you say, he was kind, he was a nice man.
Speaker 1:And he's building a team.
Speaker 2:And he's building a team. But then I saw him deliver a difficult message ie, we're not on schedule, buck up. And he delivered that too in such a way that people didn't feel told off. They just thought, oh, I let him down.
Speaker 1:Yes, exactly, I let him down and I don't want to let him down, and our bigger purpose is where the whole company is going, and so everyone's aligned to that bigger purpose, because at some stage he has outlined that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I wonder if we could do some analogies with other types of executives politicians, military leaders or anything like that. Do they need executive peasants?
Speaker 1:Well, they do. I'll tell you a story. When I was a young actor I was about, say, 23, 24, and I was doing a training film for the British Army we had to do this exercise where there were 10 people in a room and you had to say all right, listen up, team, this is the plan, this is what we're going to do. Off, we go Over the hill, no-transcript panic in this, and you're going to get us all shot. Except we weren't going to get shot. It was an exercise, but I thought that's not how to do 29.
Speaker 1:And he came in and he showed really good executive present leadership skills. And I was only 24 and I watched him, thinking you've really nailed this. He was clear, he was kind and he was in the eye, the men and the women, one, two, all the way around. And when he'd done that he said ladies and gentlemen, he was respectful. He didn't say listen up, you people. Then he said in two minutes, this half of the room will leave from this door and this half of the room will leave from this door and in seven minutes we'll have captured the castle. Let's go. All of us followed him and he went stop. We all stopped and he said you're all following me and I haven't told you what we're doing. It was extraordinary. The only thing I learned from him is that he wasn't loud. He wasn't loud, he wasn't all on transmit, but it was very clear. And obviously this is crisis management stuff, but still it was respectful, it was clear, it was kind, it was quiet.
Speaker 2:I don't have anything like that, but I remember when the pandemic hit, I was in a chief operating officer role at the time and I remember somebody coming in and saying look, this has just happened. I've just seen this announcement. You know, we've been watching it. We knew it was building up, but something significant had happened.
Speaker 2:And I called everybody together into a room and I thought the most important thing I can do right now is not panic but have a plan, give everybody a task and a time limit to say, right, we need to check that everybody has got a laptop and all the cables they need to work from home. We need to check they have all the software that they need. We need to check the protocols for the office and clearly define whether people could come into the office at all and, if so, when. We needed to just suddenly and quickly, within an hour or two, put together the operation plan.
Speaker 1:And that made people feel safe? Presumably, I think so.
Speaker 2:They all ran off to do their respective jobs and I said I'll meet you back here in an hour and a half and I want all to be reported and then somebody to write it all down and then we'll action it.
Speaker 1:Great, but they were focused, so there was a clear focus, yeah.
Speaker 2:The only thing I remember thinking going into that room is everything in my head, which was ah, don't in any way articulate that?
Speaker 1:No, that's right.
Speaker 2:Because they're feeling all that.
Speaker 1:They're feeling that. I remember once I was coaching the global head of risk for one of the biggest banks in the world, and so I go along to meet this client. So we're in the room and I said oh, you know, very nice to see you. How's your day going so far? And he said well, not the best day, robin. He said our entire computer system for Asia has just gone down.
Speaker 2:Not great.
Speaker 1:And I said well, look, we can reschedule if you need to. He said Robin. He said I've made a call. My job is to build a team. When stuff happens, I inform the team. They do it. He said we'll go out for lunch and I said how can you be so calm?
Speaker 1:He said Robin, he laughed, he said I can't get on my hands and knees with a screwdriver and fix it. Yeah, you do. And he said if I phone up my direct report every five minutes, I'm actually getting in the way. So he said we expect stuff to happen. We have plans to mitigate it. They've been put in place. You and I will go out for lunch and I remember thinking that's very cool. I know I would be on my hands and knees with a screwdriver trying to fix it.
Speaker 2:Okay. So what we really saying here is that, like you said at the top of the podcast, it's an X factor, it's intangible, but I think we've pretty much broken down the different elements of it. So do you say to people that you're training to have executive presence? Do you say, try and demonstrate, or do these different elements every day?
Speaker 1:Do you?
Speaker 2:say practice them. Which would you point to be the most important that we've talked about?
Speaker 1:Well, as we said earlier, it is a mix and a menu of all sorts of things. To make it up, you can't just say this is what executive presence is, because it's a combination of many, many factors. On a good day, we can often do a lot of these things. What we have to do to make it consistent for us, so that we come across consistently, is we have to practice them every day. So I would say, consciously, think about your intention when you walk into a room. Think about what your voice is doing, think about what your body is doing, your eye contact Are you listening well? Are you asking enough questions? Are you humble enough? Are you building trust? Are you building a team? Is your messaging really clear?
Speaker 2:Yeah, you can practice those every day.
Speaker 1:Are? Are you building a team? Is your messaging really clear? Yeah, you can practice those every day. Are you kind enough? Are you generous enough? Do you praise people enough? And I think if we do all those things on a regular basis, they become a habit and then you don't walk into them thinking, oh, I have to remember these 10 things to do Because we constantly do them. They just become how we are. And then, when that becomes how we are, then we do look, feel and sound like a leader and hopefully we have executive presence.
Speaker 2:Excellent, excellent. I will start doing that every day.
Speaker 1:Well, you have a lot of it, and it's really important to remember that most of us do have a lot of these things. I haven't come up with new things here. It's just that having a balance of all those things in the right way, the right mix, is what creates executive presence.
Speaker 2:Brilliant, brilliant. Thank you so much, robin.
Speaker 1:Well, thank you, sian Great. Have you ever wished you could become a confident speaker or presenter? Then why not join my online masterclass Speak so your Audience Will Listen. In 10 easy to follow-follow modules, you can become a confident and authentic speaker. For more information, visit robincomercom.