The Art of Communication

Difficult Conversations

• Robin Kermode and Sian Hansen • Season 1 • Episode 24

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Difficult Conversations.
We all have to have them. Most of us dread them and some of us put them off. How can we make them less difficult and less awkward? Robin Kermode and Sian Hansen answer these and other 'difficult' questions. The conclusion? More voice, less emoji! Join them for another fun episode. 



Robin:

Hello and welcome to the Art of Communication podcast, where we talk about everything to do with communication, both in our personal and our business lives. You're welcome to contact us at robincurmodecom.

Sian:

Hello, this is Sian Hansen and I'm here with Robin Kermode. Hello, and we're about to have a difficult conversation. No, we're not.

Robin:

Hopefully not.

Sian:

We're going to have a conversation about difficult conversations.

Robin:

Yeah, difficult, awkward conversations, those ones that have to be had.

Sian:

And what is the definition of a difficult conversation?

Robin:

Well, I would say it's a difficult conversation. If you think it's going to be a difficult conversation, if you leave your office and you walk down the corridor to have a difficult conversation in quotes with somebody, then you know it is. Well, it's going to be difficult because you're setting it up that way, because you're walking in with the kind of energy of sort of the equivalent of ready for a fight or being defensive about it. So you're setting up a tension already even before you start.

Sian:

Right, which is what we should avoid, and I'm sure this podcast will be about. I suppose what I'm really thinking is what is a difficult conversation I can see. Let's say, in business, you might have to tell a client that the project is delayed, or you might have to tell an employee that they're not doing so well. What about in your personal life?

Robin:

Maybe you come home and say to your partner I've lost my job.

Sian:

Or you have to say to your kids we're moving house and you have to leave your school and leaving your friends. So they come in all shapes and sizes, don't they? So you just talked about how you approach the conversation, knowing that you're the one who's going to bring up a difficult topic. So how do you prep yourself?

Robin:

Well, I think the most important thing is to choose the right time and the right venue, because you don't want to be having this in a noisy pub and shouting. You know, I'm afraid you're fired, right.

Sian:

But on the other hand, sometimes you want a busy venue, don't you? Because I understand from a great restaurateur, I know that quite a lot of difficult conversations take place in a busy restaurant Because the person hearing the message can't get too angry, can't get too public.

Robin:

They have to behave well. But I think it doesn't want to be too loud. I think also it wants to be somewhere where you feel comfortable first of all, Maybe also where they feel comfortable, because we're trying not to turn this into a difficult conversation. We're trying to have a conversation with an outcome. That maybe is necessary. But does the process have to be difficult? Well, maybe not.

Sian:

Yeah, I have to say, in workplace settings, when you're coming up to a performance review with an employee that you think might be tough, I say to myself I'm not going to have a tough conversation with this person. I turn it around and I say I'm going to have a constructive time with this employee about their development, which is a different emphasis.

Robin:

And also, I suppose it depends on whether you want to keep them. So if you want somebody to stay with you, if that's your outcome, I suppose that would be one of my other things to think about is what do you want out of it? And if you want the person to stay but work better or work more efficiently or whatever, then that was your outcome. If you're going to fire them anyway, if you're going to have to let somebody go, then that's a different thing. If you're going to have to let somebody go, then that's a different thing. So I suppose knowing your best outcome is also helpful.

Sian:

Okay, so what you have to do is choose a good time. If it's a workplace, awkward conversation, is that the end of the day? The beginning of the day?

Robin:

Well, a time when you're not rushed afterwards or you've just come from a difficult meeting yourself. Because ideally, if we want this meeting not to feel like as we say in quotes, a difficult conversation, we have to be physically calm and mentally calm. So if we schedule this so-called difficult meeting straight after another difficult meeting, we can often take the tension from the first meeting into the second one. We start tense before we even get going.

Sian:

And it goes without saying, if it's clearly not at work. But if it's a personal conversation, that's difficult. Don't have a drink. I'm just thinking out loud Dutch courage. Do you want Dutch courage? What do you think? Clear head.

Robin:

Well, just like making speeches or being an actor, people often say, yeah, but if I have a glass I just feel so much better. And, like we've always said before, if you have a glass of champagne or a glass of whiskey or something and you go, oh, that little rush of adrenaline, yes, you might feel great, but you might just think you're good. It not necessarily makes you any better. I tend to say to myself I'll have this conversation, or I have this meeting or give this talk, and as a reward to myself, I'll give myself a treat of a glass of something afterwards. Right, that's my way of doing it.

Sian:

Right. Clearly that would be better. So you've chosen a time and you've chosen what is probably a neutral space and one that's fairly quiet or conducive to the outcome that you want.

Robin:

Sometimes when you're walking outside, you can have a difficult conversation outside in the open. Oh, walking side by side, it's not as confrontational. So sometimes the outside venue can be quite nice because you've got other things to look at and somehow the silence between sentences isn't so embarrassing and so obvious if you're walking because you're doing something.

Sian:

That's true, and actually that's quite good with children if you're not confrontational.

Robin:

If you want a difficult conversation with teenagers, have it in the car when you're both facing forward. They can't escape, so the conversation has to continue.

Sian:

You're right. Sometimes it's good to be walking side by side. So how do you prep yourself? Like you are sitting with the knowledge Maybe the person you're speaking to doesn't even know this is coming. So how do you prep yourself ahead of having to give bad news? How do I deal with my nerves? Do I do some of your breathing exercises?

Robin:

I think so. I think everything is about being centered, so breathing from your gut, from your stomach, pushing a wall, putting your hands in prayer position and pushing your hands together so you're getting rid of any tension. But I think the other thing is just try and be calm. And if we say, okay, I need to have this conversation with somebody, I need to bring them along with me so they buy into what I'm saying, then it's a coaching conversation rather than a brutal attack. But it does depend, of course, on the kind of difficult conversation you're having.

Sian:

Oh, it's so interesting what you're saying about a brutal attack. It's not going to work, sorry, in my humble opinion, if you walk in with an attitude of it's my way or the highway.

Robin:

Well, it also goes with the old fashioned leadership style, doesn't it? Come on and control leadership, and now we want to bring people along with us, if we can.

Sian:

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense, but I'm always curious, before I go into those conversations, if they think there's even the same problem.

Robin:

Well, that's often the problem, isn't it? I love that story of I think it's Piers Morgan, when he was editor of the Mirror or whichever it was, and he decided he wanted to get rid of the lady who did the horoscopes. And he called her in for a meeting and he said I assume you know why you're here, and if you don't know why you're here, that's why you're here.

Sian:

But there is a very serious question. There is quite often, I think there's a problem and the other person is unaware of it.

Robin:

So therefore, it does feel like to them a brutal attack, because it comes out of nowhere.

Sian:

OK, so you're in the room and how do you approach the first things you say? How do you approach that?

Robin:

Well, it would depend on the type of awkward conversation it's going to be, of course. If it's a conversation that is essentially binary, as in you're fired, then the answer is you have to go straight into it. I know that the police, when they have difficult conversations like, for example, when they knock on someone's door and they have to give news that somebody's had an accident, that kind of thing it's much better if they come straight to the point. They establish they're talking to the right person and then they say this is what's happened. You don't want a mixed message. So rather like if you go to a doctor and the doctor says look, we've seen the results, this is the prognosis. You want it clean. You don't want to mix messages at that point and you don't want somebody trying to make the message sound more palatable by smiling. Much better to give it as a neutral, clean message, not adding in the but I'm trying to be nice in the way I'm telling you, because actually that gets in the way.

Sian:

So really clean straight up front.

Robin:

Yes, we had teachers at school who used to smile with saying I'm afraid I'm just going to have to punish you. That's really irritating. You think? No, you're enjoying this, aren't you?

Sian:

Yeah.

Robin:

Much better for a teacher to say look, you know the rules, there has to be a punishment, you have to be accountable and you go. Yeah, fair enough.

Sian:

Okay, so be neutral, say it up front.

Robin:

I think that's true. Yes, if it's a binary conversation, if it's a coaching conversations, you're saying and you're trying to keep somebody and develop them, then you wouldn't necessarily come straight out.

Sian:

Oh. So what do you do instead? You pose what you think is a problem and then sit back and listen.

Robin:

I would ask them if they think it's a problem. I would say so. We've had the reviews. How do you think it's going?

Sian:

Right, and then how do you do the listening? I know that's a strange question, but I really want to know how do you do that.

Robin:

We don't want to do acting listening. Acting listening is lots of aha, lots of nodding, smiling, almost demonstrating that you're listening. Really really good listening is doing nothing. One of the hardest things to learn as an actor is just to listen, and that's to actually do nothing.

Sian:

Wow.

Robin:

You're holding the space for the other person.

Sian:

So you're not reacting to them. You let them have the space to say what they have to say to them.

Robin:

you let them have the space to say what they have to say. Often people will be going aha, but what they're actually saying is aha, yes, but almost implied on their facial expression is I'm going to let you say this, but I'm almost waiting to come in with my counterattack Right when they're finished. You can then respond, but not at the time.

Sian:

And when you respond? I know in therapy they do this sometimes. But when you respond, do you repeat back what they've said or do you just address their concerns.

Robin:

I think if somebody's given quite a long answer, it's useful to say, I think, from what you're saying, x, y and Z and that's a nice way of paraphrasing in a way and summarising what they've said, but it shows you've been listening.

Sian:

Yeah, I think it's incredibly important not to be dismissive.

Robin:

We must see their point of view. Even if you don't, no, no, no, no. We have to see their point of view. We can disagree with it, but we have to hear and listen and allow their point of view to exist.

Sian:

And then, while you're in the room and you're having the conversation, do you think you should physically do anything? Do you think there's any point at which you stand up and shake it out or take a break, you know, especially if it's getting quite tense?

Robin:

Yes, it reminds me. In what I suppose will be now called old fashioned, well-made plays, there was always a moment where somebody would get up and walk to the drinks cabinet or get up and open a window or something like that, and the answer is that's what we do do in life. It's displacement activity.

Robin:

Sometimes the moment is a bit tense and we go and do something like opening the window or pouring a glass of water or something, blow your nose or blow well, I suppose you're blowing your nose, you know.

Robin:

Go and check your hair in the mirror. But I think I think it's just a way of having another phase of the conversation and just slightly changing the dynamic in terms of how we sit. I don't think we want to move around too much. You know, there are ways we can lean forward and listen, and there are ways we can lean forward and listen, and there are ways we can sit back and listen and there are ways that we can be on the front foot and on the back foot in terms of our energy levels during these conversations and we're driving it or we're listening and all those things. But I think we don't want to be too demonstrative physically. So I don't think we want to do big folding of the arms, blocks kind of behaviour, or lots of heavy movements and banging things down on the table. I think we want to be quite gentle. Don't frighten the horses really.

Sian:

And so what you're really saying in a big picture sense is control your emotions.

Robin:

Watch your language Well keep calm and listen, I think.

Sian:

Keep calm and listen. It can get very emotional though, can't it Robin?

Robin:

Yes, that's an interesting thing, isn't it? Now, it's what happens when somebody starts crying starts crying or gets very angry.

Sian:

How do you calm them down? What do you do?

Robin:

allow them to get it out of their system. Not always possible, but I think if you can allow them their space to say what they want to say okay.

Sian:

So let's think about something else. Let's think about you're ringing up a client. You're going to have to say the project is a week out. So what kind of approach do you because you want to keep that client?

Robin:

And also this is normally a long-term relationship with that client.

Sian:

Yeah, so what do you do?

Robin:

I think you have to be honest. You have to say look, external things have happened, or even we've made a mistake internally. We hold our hands up to it.

Sian:

By phone or as soon as possible.

Robin:

As soon sake internally, we hold our hands up to it by phone or as soon as possible. As soon as possible is the first thing. Right and ideally a phone call, not an email. Email is the coward's way out yeah, it is, isn't it sending a text. It's like I heard somebody once had left their boyfriend. This girl decided to leave her boyfriend and she just sent a five letter text and it was literally you are my ex.

Sian:

The letter U, the capital R.

Robin:

You are my ex. That was it. Five letters. I think a conversation, face-to-face or a phone call would at least have been nice. Even a handwritten card.

Sian:

I wanted to ask you about something that happens quite often after a difficult conversation. So we've got the arc here, haven't we? We've set it up, we're in the middle of it, we've delivered the news, we're listening, we're being empathetic.

Robin:

We're remaining calm.

Sian:

We're not speaking too fast, you've got it all going there. Normally that meeting comes to an end, but the person on the receiving end let's just call it that normally has a lot to say. About 24 hours later they want another go at it. Do you go ahead with that?

Robin:

Well, again, I suppose it depends if it's a binary exit. If it's a long-term conversation, you probably say yes, we can have a conversation. But I think we covered everything yesterday.

Sian:

And that's it straight up.

Robin:

I think so, but I think that can be done by voice message. I mean, many of us use texts and WhatsApps and Signal and all these kinds of things. Now what people don't often do, and I don't know, maybe people don't know you can. But I leave voice messages on those messaging systems and I think they're much nicer than just a text, because the text can be misinterpreted. But when it's your voice saying I'm sorry, I can't attend that event or whatever, they can sense from your intonation how genuine you are. So I think we should all speak more. And certainly, you know, in the old days it was quite hard to get hold of people on the telephone, but now, because people rarely phone each other and most business things are done by email, when you actually pick up the phone, people go oh hello, nice to hear from you Like it's a surprise.

Sian:

Yeah, I know so. Maybe actually you just have to get in the habit of doing that all the time.

Robin:

I think, get in the habit of using our voice.

Sian:

Using our voice and using the telephone more often again.

Robin:

More voice, less emoji.

Sian:

Yeah. I would say but what about old fashioned voicemail? Do you use that anymore? I don't think anybody listens to that.

Robin:

They will listen to it, but it normally requires more than one click and we're getting so used to one click by everything now. So the nice thing about something like whatsapp or signal is a message comes in, you press one click, it just plays and actually you can see it there, rather like an image. You can see the, the sound waves, but if you leave a voicemail on a standard answering service you have to dial the answer phone system. You've got to press one to play, one to listen, and it's about 15 clicks. Nobody's interested in 15 clicks anymore, right?

Sian:

Robin, I've been in a couple of conversations where they've had to tell me some bad news or something like that about the company or about my health or whatever, and I always get a little confused and a little upset if they play the victim. Have you ever had that where somebody goes? I'm really sorry I'm the one to have to tell you this, but it's not really my fault.

Robin:

That's when they make it about them. Yeah, yes, so news is neutral. It affects the person who's been given bad news. It's difficult for the person who's giving the bad news, but actually the news itself is neutral. So the more we can think of news as neutral, the better.

Sian:

So don't make it about you.

Robin:

No, In my life I'd had various times where, through bereavements and things, you ring up somebody and they start crying and you think, hang on, I'm the one who's lost somebody. But either it triggers something in them or they feel somehow to show empathy they have to overreact and I think just hold a space and be there for them.

Sian:

Yeah.

Robin:

What we haven't really addressed is we've assumed we're always the one in control, so we're always the boss having this conversation, or the line manager. Yeah, but what about if you want to have an awkward conversation with your superior, with your boss?

Sian:

oh, are the rules different?

Robin:

there's a different hierarchy, isn't there? But you still want to get your point across and I suppose the answer is the same things apply. We have to say things calmly and we have to say them once. I think when we get emotional about something, we tend to repeat ourselves, we tend to go and another thing and, by the way, so that's really another thing, and actually, if I could repeat that again and we reinforce it and, like I've been saying, and you go, okay, I've heard you once.

Sian:

Or, in my case, I will be going. I'm so sorry, but I really feel that I think this is something that maybe we should discuss, maybe now, maybe later, but we should bring it up, you.

Robin:

Subject I remember when I first left well, not first left when I left drama college, we had to obviously get an agent. It was the idea, right? I knocked on the door of George's PA, George Hall, who was this wonderful man who ran Central School of Speech and Drama. Or I went and knocked on the door and I said sorry to trouble you. I know it's a bit annoying, but any chance I could possibly get the list of agents because I want to try and get an agent and invite people. And sorry to take up your time.

Robin:

And she went, robin, why are you apologising? I said well, I just don't want to interrupt your day. I know you're busy. She said my job is to get you an agent. So she said I'd like you to go outside, knock on the door and come back in and just ask me. So I said okay. So I went outside the door and felt a bit awkward and I knocked on the door. She went come in and I said good morning, can you help me? I need the list of agents. She said, yes, here it is. That was easier, wasn't it? I had gone in anticipating this awkward conversation. Why I even thought it was awkward, I don't know, because it wasn't an awkward conversation at all.

Sian:

But somehow in my mind I was thinking oh, I've got to do this difficult thing. That's a good point when you're asking somebody a favour or whatever it is, or it's annoying for them, or something, or we're interrupting their day, or you know they've got a million other better things to do. But that's a very good point.

Sian:

Just go in and ask Well like we've said right through this conversation keep it clean, just say it. And I think we're also saying I mean the way you're describing it, robin is you're almost fostering a dialogue. So in certain difficult conversations you're asking to hear the other person you have your say they have theirs and what are you looking for in the end? A bit of a win-win.

Robin:

It's got to feel like a win-win. Now, of course, if you're letting somebody go from your employment, it doesn't feel like a win-win, but it is actually because you want to keep somebody there who's not appropriate for that role. They're not happy. If there's a job for somebody and they're the right person to do it, then they'll probably stay on. If it's the wrong job for the wrong person, they probably shouldn't be doing it and actually you're releasing them to find a better job somewhere else that's more suitable for them.

Robin:

There's one extra thing which is interesting here, which a client of mine mentioned the other day, and he was Christian, but this could apply to any religion or new age, universal religion, whatever. I watched him once and I said every time you go to a door, you go to turn the door handle. And I said you're doing something, aren't you? And it was a millisecond something he was doing and he said yeah. I said what do you do? He said I put my hand on the door handle and I paused for a second, I opened the door and I let the holy spirit go ahead of me. Now, this was in a Christian context, but it could be in any context. It could be the sense of saying I'm allowing a sense of kindness, fair play, goodness, whatever words you want to use, come ahead of you. So you're not opening the door, going right, I'm coming in for a difficult conversation.

Robin:

Everything in life, as you know, sian, everything is waves. So if you think of a sound wave, you see the sound waves that are very low, soft, undulating ones. When somebody's shaking a piece of paper like that, the sound waves are going up and down very fast. That tension is something that an audience picks up and it's something that somebody picks up in what might be a difficult conversation. If you're projecting that kind of tension, they'll pick that up. What might be a difficult conversation, if you're projecting that kind of tension, they'll pick that up. So if we come in with a softer sound wave and a softer energy level, that creates a better energy. And I like his analogy of just before you open the door, just allow a sense of calm to come ahead of you. So, even though it might be potentially difficult, we can bring a sense of calm to it.

Sian:

Well, this hasn't been a difficult conversation with you. No, this has been really revealing, and we all have to do these all the time. You know, life is not straightforward. It's not a bowl of cherries, and you have to have these conversations, and you've given us some really good tips on how to prep yourself and how to deliver the message. As ever, robin, brilliant.

Robin:

Thank you very much. There are lots of other fun episodes in this series. We'd love you to follow us, and you can contact us directly with any ideas you may have at robincurmercom.